龔鵬程x維格夫｜要提高“說“和“聽”在教育中的地位

龔鵬程對話海外學者第九十五期：在后現代情境中，被技術統治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學研究中心”。我們會陸續推出“龔鵬程對話海外學者”系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

魯伯特·維格夫教授（Professor Rupert Wegerif）

劍橋大學教育學教授，互聯網對話式教育理論創始人。

龔鵬程教授：您好。您以對話式教育著稱。這種教育，確實對互聯網時代具有特殊意義，但這種教育是否只能是補充或調節？例如在學生進入“對話式轉換”之前，是不是應該先有一套知識或觀點，接著才能了解不同觀點，以擴大對話空間？其次，無限制的知識視野，固然在互聯網上不難馳騁，可是教育一定有具體的課時課程限制，不可能任由學生神游。

魯伯特·維格夫教授：龔教授您好！感謝您提出的第一個有趣而富有挑戰性的問題。事實上，對話式教育一直旨在涵蓋由教師或其他人對現有知識的指導。當我第一次在英國學習教育時，"以兒童為中心"的建構主義方法很受歡迎。對話式教育不是 "以兒童為中心"。它旨在與以兒童為中心的方法形成對比。但同時，它也不是 "以教師為中心 "或 "以課程為中心"，而是介于這兩個極端之間的平衡立場。讓我進一步解釋：

知識不是固定的和最終的，而是作為對話的一部分一直在被質疑和發展。這種對話，比如說科學的對話，我稱之為"文化的長期對話"。對學生來說，獲得 "知識 "意味著參與這種對話。對于一個學生來說，要知道達爾文的進化論意味著什么，僅僅重復所學的短語是不夠的，他們需要知道達爾文所反對的其他觀點。

例如，他們還需要了解拉馬克的另一種錯誤理論，即生物體在一生中的變化會傳遞給后代。掌握了某種知識，就能參與有關它的辯論，并從不同角度解釋它。

生物學的對話繼續增長，最近的研究發現，生物體一生中的一些變化實際上是通過表觀遺傳機制傳遞給后代的。

事實證明，拉馬克并非完全錯誤，達爾文也并非完全正確。我們認為我們在科學上知道一些事情，但事實上我們只知道我們所問問題的答案。當我們學會提出更好的問題時，我們可能會得到不同的、更好的答案。

我在這里要說的是，知識和對話并不是真正分開的。為了學習知識，學生需要學習如何提問和參與關于知識的對話。

教育意味著將學生引入長期的文化對話中，如科學和歷史。這涉及到教授"知識"，但知識不應該作為固定的最終事實來教授，而應該以過去在背景中所說的理由的形式來教授。

引導兒童參與長期文化對話的最佳方式通常，但并不總是，通過對話。如果首先刺激兒童提出問題，相互質疑，并在小組中相互解釋，那么他們就會更容易理解所教的知識。如果以這種方式進行教學，他們有一天將能夠質疑和改進知識，從而為創新和成長作出貢獻。

雖然不應該讓孩子們去流浪，但我認為，有了互聯網的資源，現在有更多的空間讓孩子走不同的學習道路。

父母和社會呼吁兒童參與有關知識的教育對話，但這是一個雙向的過程。為了使學習發生，兒童和學生需要被激勵和參與。社會需要很多不同類型的專家，兒童自然希望對他們周圍的社會有用。

一方面，我們不能讓學生自由地學習他們想要的東西，但另一方面，我們也不應該在他們16歲或18歲之前告訴他們必須學習什么，即使在英國，現有的大部分課程對他們和社會都沒有明顯的作用。在這兩個極端之間進行某種對話是可能的。

我們需要教孩子們如何合理地與他人相處，如何很好地交談，以便他們能夠向他人學習，如何與數字打交道，如何閱讀，但在小學教完這些基本知識后，在我看來，可能有許多不同的人生成功之路，應該得到支持和鼓勵。

Thank you for your interesting and challenging first question. In fact dialogic education has always been intended to include guidance by teachers or others into existing knowledge. When I first studied education in the UK a 'child-centred' constructivist approach was popular. Dialogic education is not 'child-centred'. It is intended as a contrast to child-centred approaches. But at the same time it is not 'teacher-centred' or 'curriculum-centred' but a balanced position between these two extremes. Let me explain further:

Knowledge is not fixed and final but is always being questioned and developed as part of a dialogue. This kind of dialogue, the dialogue of science for example, I call a 'long-term dialogue of culture'. For the student to gain 'knowledge' means to participate in this dialogue. For a student to know what Darwin's theory of evolution means it is not enough to repeat learnt phrases, they need to know the alternative ideas that Darwin was arguing against. They need, for example, also to be taught Larmarcks alternative and wrong theory that changes in an organism over the lifetime are transmitted to offspring. To have knowledge of something it to be able to participate in a debate about it and explain it from different perspectives. The dialogue of biology continues to grow and recent research has found that some changes in an organism over a lifetime are in fact transmitted to offspring through epigenetic mechanisms. Lamarck, it turns out, was not completely wrong and Darwin not completely right. We think we know things in science but in fact we only know the answers to the questions that we have asked. When we learn to ask better questions we might get different and better answers. My point here is that knowledge and dialogue are not really separate. In order to learn knowledge students need to learn how to question and engage in dialogue about knowledge.

Education means inducting students into long-term dialogues of culture such as science and history. This involves teaching 'knowledge' but knowledge should be taught not as fixed final facts but in the form of what has been said in the past in contexts for reasons. The best way to induct children into participation in long-term dialogues of culture is usually, but not always, through dialogue. If children are first stimulated to ask questions, challenge each other and explain things to each other in small groups it then becomes much easier for them to understand the knowledge that they are being taught. If taught in this way they will be able to question and improve knowledge one day thereby contributing to innovation and growth.

While I certainly agree that children should not be left to wander I think that, with the resources of the Internet, there is now much more scope for children taking different learning paths. Parents and society call children into participation in educational dialogues about knowledge, but this is a two-way process. For learning to happen children and students need to be motivated and engaged. Society needs a lot of different kinds of experts and children naturally want to be useful to the society around them. On the one hand we cannot leave students free to study whatever they want but on the other hand we should not tell them exactly what they have to study until they are 16 or 18 even when much of the existing curriculum, in the UK anyway, is not obviously useful either to them or to society. Some kind of dialogue between these extremes is possible. We need to teach children how to behave reasonably with others, how to talk well so that they can learn from others, how to work with numbers and how to read but after these basics are taught and learnt in primary schools it seems to me that there could be many different routes to success in life which should be supported and encouraged.

龔鵬程教授：對話式教育，和青少年迷戀手機、網游、電子游戲的具體分際為何，要如何導引青少年？

魯伯特·維格夫教授：對話式教育是通過對話進行的教育，也是我上面所說的對話式教育。這是多年前孔子的教育方式，也是古希臘蘇格拉底的教育方式。當"口才 "或說話和聽覺在教育中占主導地位時，它更象是一種對話。

我們目前在英國和中國的學校系統幾乎沒有對話的空間。我認為，它仍然被印刷文本所主導。我認為新的通信技術，包括互聯網、移動電話，甚至電子游戲，都有可能支持教育中更多的對話。

事實上，我懷疑大多數人已經在互聯網上通過社交媒體網站一直在學習很多東西。問題被提出，答案被給出，知識被分享。

問題是，這并不總是好的知識。社交媒體網站的設計并不是為了支持教育，年輕人也沒有被教導如何正確地批評和質疑，以便能夠評估知識的質量。如果我們在小學時教孩子們如何一起批判性地思考，他們可能會更好地利用互聯網。

像維基百科和百度百科這樣的在線開放式合作百科全書，在向每個人免費提供更多知識方面取得了巨大成功。

我認為，現在是我們為教育做同樣事情的時候了。互聯網上有許多優秀的教育資源。也許我們可以通過一個在線平臺將所有這些資源匯集在一起，并通過人工智能支持互動式教學，不僅為個人，也為團體。

Dialogic education is education through dialogue and also education for dialogue as I described above. This is the way that Confucius taught many years ago and also Socrates in ancient Greece. When 'oracy' or speaking and listening dominated education it was more dialogic. The school system we have at the moment in the UK and in China has little room for dialogue. It is still dominated, I think, by printed texts. I think that new communications technology including the Internet, mobile phones and even video games, has the potential to support more dialogue in education. In fact I suspect that most people are learning many things on the Internet through social media sites all the time already. Questions are asked, answers are given and knowledge is shared. The problem is that this is not always good knowledge. Social media sites have not been designed to support education and young people have not been taught how to criticise and question properly so as to be able to assess the quality of knowledge. If we taught children how to think together critically in primary school they might make better use of the Internet.

Online open collaborative encyclopaedias like Wikipedia and Baidu Baike have been a great success in making more knowledge freely available to everyone. I think it is time what we did the same for education. There are many excellent sources of educational resources on the Internet. Perhaps we could bring all these together through one online platform that also supported, with AI, interactive teaching and learning not just for individuals but also for groups.

龔鵬程教授：對話式教育，或您說的技術對話式教育，只能用互聯網進行嗎？

魯伯特·維格夫教授：我的教育研究生涯的開端是開發教小學生如何更好地一起交談的方案。廣泛的研究表明，這種"對話式 "的方法在提高智力的同時也提高了學習效果。它不需要互聯網。

然而，我最初的博士論文，在20世紀90年代，側重于兒童在計算機周圍一起交談和用計算機學習。我認為，通過對話學習和新的數字技術的結合可以很好地發揮作用，但這不一定是必要的。

I began my educational research career developing programmes to teach primary age students how to talk together better. Extensive research shows that this 'dialogic' approach works to increase intelligence as learning. It does not require the Internet. However my original PhD, in the 1990s, focussed on children talking together around computers and learning with computers. I think that the combination of learning through dialogue and new digital technology can be made to work well but it is certainly not necessary.

龔鵬程教授：目前兒童及青少年已因聯網或使用手機過度而損害眼睛很嚴重了，因此對話式教育是不是更該強調“聽”和“說”，減低“看”的部分？

魯伯特·維格夫教授：正如我在上面提到的，對話式教育始于口才，即說話和聽話。令人振奮的是，隨著互聯網的發展，它正在使新的教學方式成為可能。

播客是一種越來越流行的方式，可以在做其他事情的時候，比如在戶外散步或騎自行車的時候，聆聽觀點和講座。要求學生制作播客也可以作為一種方式，讓他們展示自己的理解。

在疫情期間，我所在的大學使用Zoom和其他同步視頻平臺在網上進行了許多小組討論會議。 這里使用了視覺，但這對聽和說來說是次要的。我們可以很容易地只用音頻來進行這種在線小組討論。

我同意您的觀點，在教育中增加聽和說，減少對視覺的關注是一個好主意。

在博士階段，主要的考試是"答辯 "或面對面的對話，學生通過回答問題證明他們的理解。這曾經是英國所有考試的規范，持續了大約200多年。書面考試開始于中國，這種模式影響了整個世界。

也許現在是時候為每個資格考試舉行更多的口試了？這將是一個比筆試更好的評估真正理解的方式。如果我們這樣做，這將提高說話和聽講在整個教育中的地位，因此，我們也許可以減少對孩子們眼睛的傷害！

As I mentioned above dialogic education began with oracy, with speaking and listening. It is exciting to see how, as the Internet develops, it is making new ways of teaching and learning possible. Podcasts are an increasingly popular way of listening to ideas and to lectures while doing other things like walking or cycling outdoors. Asking student to produce podcasts can also be used as a way for them to demonstrate their understanding. During the recent pandemic many small group discussion sessions were run online at my university using zoom and other synchronous video platforms. Vision was used here but it was secondary to the listening and talking. We could easily run such online small group discussions with audio alone.

I agree with you that increasing speaking and listening in education and reducing the focus on vision would be a good idea. At PhD level the main examination is a 'viva' or face to face dialogue in which students demonstrate their understanding by answering questions. This used to be the norm for all examinations in the UK until about 200 years ago. Written examinations began in China and this model has influenced the whole world. Perhaps it is time to hold more spoken viva examinations for every qualification? That would be a better way to assess real understanding than a written examination. If we did so this would increase the status of talking and listening throughout education and as a result, we might do less damage to children's eyes!

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學博士，當代著名學者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規劃城市建設、主題園區等多處。講學于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現為中國孔子博物館名譽館長、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。