龔鵬程x米爾諾｜我們談論精英的能力超談論窮人或被奴役人的能力

龔鵬程對話海外學者第八十九期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學研究中心”。我們會陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對話海外學者”系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

克里斯蒂娜·米爾諾教授（Professor Kristina Milnor）

美國哥倫比亞大學古典學系古典學教授

龔鵬程教授：您好。您曾研究過龐貝城的涂鴉，談及普勞圖斯Mostellaria中的舞臺、空間和家庭生活。圖像和視覺場景似乎在您的研究中發(fā)揮著重要作用。您也對電影研究感興趣嗎？您如何看待描寫古代歷史故事的電影中對女性生活的描述和反映？

米爾諾教授：龔教授，您好。我對電影研究很感興趣，實際上教了一門關(guān)于古希臘和羅馬在電影中的表現(xiàn)的課程，叫做“經(jīng)典與電影”（“Classics and Film”）。在課程中，我們考慮那些聲稱代表歷史事件的電影（例如角斗士（Gladiator）），哪些是古代文本的電影版本（Fellini Satyricon），以及那些僅僅使用古代世界作為主題元素的電影（Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? and Orphée）。我們也從早期的無聲電影（Cabiria，1914）發(fā)展到現(xiàn)代史詩（300，2006）。看到電影制作人在構(gòu)建古代地中海世界的形象時所做的所有選擇，以及這些選擇如何最強烈地反映了制作這部電影的文化理念和價值觀，這非常有趣。

我們當然已經(jīng)看到了從早期電影的轉(zhuǎn)變。在早期電影中，古代女性被簡單地視為男性故事中的棋子和受害者，到女性在改變故事事件中扮演更積極的角色。大多數(shù)關(guān)于古代的電影沒有成功完成的一件事是強調(diào)我們對很久以前生活的人們的生活一無所知。

因為電影制作人通常最感興趣的是通過引人入勝的視覺圖像來講述故事，所以他們傾向于向觀眾提供他們想要和期望看到的東西，以免因過度關(guān)注文化環(huán)境而分散觀眾的注意力。

當我們談論對古代女性的描繪時，這尤其成問題，我們對她們的生活知之甚少。因此，電影制片人被迫在為他們的故事創(chuàng)造一個連貫的古代背景和誠實地承認我們實際上掌握的關(guān)于古代社會某些方面的歷史數(shù)據(jù)有多么少之間走一條艱難的路。

I am very interested in film studies, and actually teach a course about representations of the ancient Greece and Rome in cinema which is called “Classics and Film”. In the course, we consider movies that purport to represent historical events (such as Gladiator), those that are filmic versions of ancient texts (Fellini Satyricon), and those that simply use the ancient world as a thematic element (Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? and Orphée). We also progress from early silent films (Cabiria, 1914) to modern epics (300, 2006). It is very interesting to see all of the choices that filmmakers make when they construct images of the ancient Mediterranean world, and how those choices often reflect most strongly the ideas and values of the culture which made the film. We have certainly seen a shift from early films in which ancient women are simply seen as pawns and victims in the stories of men, to those where women take a more active role in shifting the events of the story. One thing which most films made about antiquity do not successfully accomplish is to highlight how much we do NOT know about the lives of people who lived so long ago. Because filmmakers are usually most interested in telling stories through compelling visual images, they tend to offer viewers what they want and expect to see, so as not to distract the audience by calling too much attention to the cultural setting. This is particularly problematic when we are talking about depictions of ancient women, about whose lives we know so little for certain. Filmmakers are forced, therefore, to walk a difficult line between creating a coherent ancient backdrop for their stories and being honest about how little historical data we actually have about certain aspects of ancient society.

龔鵬程教授：女權(quán)主義研究似乎經(jīng)常反對傳統(tǒng)的女性與家庭生活的“束縛”，而是強調(diào)女性在公共領(lǐng)域的能力、權(quán)利和角色。這幾年來，學者們才開始逐漸談論女性的私人空間和家庭生活，這非常重要。家庭生活和個人空間如何在女權(quán)主義研究中發(fā)揮作用？您能舉一些例子嗎？

米爾諾教授：這是一個非常重要的問題，自 1970 年代女權(quán)主義歷史開始以來，這一問題已持續(xù)多年。在過去很長一段時間里——而且在某些圈子里——在任何前現(xiàn)代社會都很難引起女權(quán)主義者對女性研究的興趣，因為人們普遍認為她們完全局限于家庭領(lǐng)域因此對歷史沒有影響。

出現(xiàn)這樣的問題的原因有兩個：首先，因為這意味著我們可能會錯過女性超越限制其權(quán)力和影響力的束縛的時刻。這方面的一個例子是，在羅馬共和國時期，女性參與集體行動并進行了大量抗議，以致男性被迫考慮她們的意見。

其次，盡管如此，近幾十年來，人們更加關(guān)注家庭領(lǐng)域和女性在其中所扮演的角色——這些角色不僅賦予了她們在自己家庭中的權(quán)力，而且往往轉(zhuǎn)化為對公共生活的間接影響。

因此，例如，當羅馬國家在公元前一世紀過渡到由一個男人和一個家庭統(tǒng)治時，皇帝的妻子、姐妹和女兒等皇室女性突然有了更大的影響力和知名度。因為他們離皇帝很近，而且他們在維護家族血統(tǒng)方面很重要。

古代歷史上另一個公共生活侵入私人領(lǐng)域并影響女性生活的時刻是在古典雅典。公元前 451 年，伯里克利修改了雅典公民法，只有父親和母親是雅典人的人才能被視為公民。他這樣做，是因為他想通過限制少數(shù)人來加強對雅典身份的集體意識，而不是因為他對女性有任何特別的興趣。在此之前，只需要一位雅典父親，部分原因是女性在古典城邦中幾乎沒有公共權(quán)利。

然而，公民法通過后，突然有必要賦予婦女某種在國家中的地位，以便她們的孩子可以被認為是純血統(tǒng)的雅典人。在451 年之后，女性在墓碑上的代表性顯著增加，學者們將其歸因于公民法賦予雅典女性的知名度和尊重度的提高。

因此，即使在一個對提升女性成員地位毫無興趣的社會中，男性有時也會在影響女性生活的私生活方面采取行動。

This is a very important issue, and has been one for many years, since the beginning of feminist history in the 1970’s. For a long time in the past – and still, in certain circles – it can be difficult to arouse feminist interest in the study of women in any pre-modern society because of the wide-spread sense that they were entirely restricted to the domestic sphere and therefore had no impact on history. This is problematic for two reasons: first, because it means we can miss moments where women did transcend the bonds which restricted their power and influence. An example of this is when women engaged in collective action under the Roman Republic and protested in such large numbers that men were forced to take their opinions into account. Secondly, though, in more recent decades there has been more focus on the domestic sphere and the roles that women played there – roles which not only gave them power within their own families but often translated to indirect influence on public life. Thus, for instance, when the Roman state made the transition to being ruled by a single man and a single family in the first century BCE, imperial women such as the emperor’s wife, sisters, and daughters suddenly had a great deal more influence and visibility because of their proximity to the emperor and their importance in maintaining the family line. Another moment in ancient history when public life intruded on the private sphere and affected the lives of women was in Classical Athens. In 451 BCE, Pericles changed the Athenian law of citizenship in so that only men with an Athenian father and mother would be considered citizens. He did this because he wanted to strengthen a collective sense of Athenian identity by restricting it to fewer people, not because he had any particular interest in women. Before this, only an Athenian father was required, in part because women had very few public rights in the classical polis. After the citizenship law was passed, however, it was suddenly necessary to accord women some kind of status in the state, so that their children could be considered full-blooded Athenians. There is a very noticeable increase in representations of women on funerary stele after 451, which scholars have attributed to the increase in visibility and respect which the citizenship laws gave to Athenian women. So even in a society which had little interest in promoting the status of its female members, men would sometimes take actions in regard to private life which affected the lives of women.

龔鵬程教授：在經(jīng)典作品中的女性形象是怎樣的？在經(jīng)典文本中有女權(quán)主義思想的例子嗎？為什么性別和性是經(jīng)典研究中的重要話題？

米爾諾教授：當我們談論到歐美教育體系中的“經(jīng)典文本”時，我們通常所指的是大約在公元前 800 年到公元 500 年間居住在地中海周圍的人們所創(chuàng)作的作品。使用的主要語言是古希臘語和拉丁語。最早的文本來自希臘大陸和希臘島嶼，組成于公元前 800 年至公元前 300 年之間。

但在亞歷山大大帝（公元前 356 年至公元前 323 年）的帝國征服之后，知識文化中心移至埃及的亞歷山大港。

隨著羅馬的崛起，文本生產(chǎn)的文化中心再次移動，到公元前一世紀末，羅馬將整個地中海盆地置于其統(tǒng)治之下。

因此，“經(jīng)典文本”是在各種文化背景下產(chǎn)生的，它們在理解女性社會地位的方式上大相徑庭。

例如，在公元前 5 世紀的雅典（古希臘），人們普遍認為不應該在公共場合聽到或看到有德行的女性。他們被期望將自己限制在家庭范圍內(nèi)，因此我們只能通過他們的男性親屬對他們的評價來了解他們。

相比之下，一些最著名的古希臘詩歌是由公元前 6 世紀居住在希臘萊斯博斯島的女詩人薩福寫的。薩福不僅能夠創(chuàng)作和表演她的詩歌，還可以公開討論她的色情感受和關(guān)系，這告訴我們她的社會對于女性的適當位置來說是有不同的理解。

在亞歷山大，不同的文化態(tài)度融合在一起，傳統(tǒng)埃及社會中男女相對平等的地位受到古典希臘人對女性施加的限制的影響。

在羅馬文化中，女性也被期望將注意力集中在家庭和家庭上，但與古典雅典女性不同，羅馬女性有權(quán)擁有和管理自己的財產(chǎn)。這不可避免地使得讓他們在公共領(lǐng)域有更多的存在力和影響力。

因此，當我們談到女性在古典文本中的表現(xiàn)時，有必要非常了解這些文本產(chǎn)生的特定文化背景：在薩福的詩歌中，女性被呈現(xiàn)為能夠相對自由地表達自己，而在古典雅典文本，預計賢惠的女性會保持沉默。在許多羅馬文本中，女性既被描述為好妻子和母親，也被描述為在政治和經(jīng)濟上具有影響力的。

通過查看古典文本中對性和性別的表現(xiàn)，我們能夠看到古代文化看待男女之間以及公民和家庭領(lǐng)域之間“正確”關(guān)系的不同方式。

When we talk about “classical texts” in the European and American educational system, we usually mean works composed by people living around the Mediterranean Sea between about 800 BCE and 500 CE. The primary languages used are Ancient Greek and Latin. The earliest texts are from mainland Greece and the Greek islands, composed between 800 BCE and about 300 BCE, but following the imperial conquests of Alexander the Great (356 - 323 BCE), the center of intellectual culture moved to Alexandria in Egypt. The cultural center of textual production moved again following the ascendency of the Rome, which brought all of the Mediterranean basin under its rule by the end of the first century BCE.

Thus, “classical texts” were produced in a wide variety of cultural contexts, which differed from each other greatly in how they understood the place of women in society. For instance, in Athens (Classical Greece) in the fifth century BCE, it was broadly accepted that virtuous women should not be heard - or heard about - in public. They were expected to confine themselves to the sphere of the household, and we therefore only know about them through what their male relatives say about them. By contrast, some of the best-known Ancient Greek poetry was written by the female poet Sappho, who lived on the Greek island of Lesbos in the 6th century BCE. The fact that Sappho was not only able to compose and perform her poetry, but also to discuss her erotic feelings and relationships publicly, tells us that her society had a different understanding of the proper place of women. In Alexandria, contrasting cultural attitudes came together and the relatively equal position of men and women in traditional Egyptian society was influenced by the restrictions placed on women by the Classical Greeks. In Roman culture, women were also expected to focus their attention on the family and household, but unlike classical Athenian women, Roman women had the right to own and manage their own property. This inevitably gave them more presence and influence in the public sphere.

Therefore, when we talk about the representation of women in classical texts, it is necessary to be very aware of the particular cultural contexts within which those texts arose: in Sappho’s poetry, women are presented as able to express themselves relatively freely, while in Classical Athenian texts, it is expected that virtuous women will be silent. In many Roman texts, women are presented as both good wives and mothers and also as politically and economically influential. By looking at the representation of sex and gender in classical texts, we are able to see the different ways that ancient cultures saw the “correct” relationship between men and women and between the civic and domestic spheres of society.

龔鵬程教授：社會學家可以從經(jīng)典文本中學到什么？在通過經(jīng)典文獻看社會學問題時，我們可以使用哪些研究方法？

米爾諾教授：社會學家可以從閱讀經(jīng)典文本中學到很多東西。首先，對于現(xiàn)代學者來說，審視與今天存在的社會的不同的社會是有益的，以便對世界現(xiàn)在的樣子給出看法。

例如，在現(xiàn)代，我們非常認同一個人的家是他們的私人空間，與外界的政治和商業(yè)分開。但是羅馬人在他們的家中開展了大量的業(yè)務，因此國內(nèi)和公民領(lǐng)域之間的界限比現(xiàn)在要容易得多。

我們應用于現(xiàn)代的許多社會學工具，都可以用來研究古代，但重要的是要認識到我們數(shù)據(jù)的局限性。

一個例子是人口統(tǒng)計，以及對（例如）預期壽命的研究。我們沒有來自古代地中海的廣泛人口普查數(shù)據(jù)（盡管我們確實有一些羅馬時期埃及的人口統(tǒng)計數(shù)據(jù)）。因此，學者們往往依靠喪葬記錄，大多是由紀念死者的銘文組成。然而，問題在于，由于多種原因，此類數(shù)據(jù)并不可靠：首先，它在所有地理區(qū)域和時間段內(nèi)不一致，因此，例如，我們有大量關(guān)于雅典墓葬的信息公元前 5 世紀下半葉，但與前后 100 年相差甚遠。我們也很少有來自古典希臘世界其他地方的銘文證據(jù)，例如斯巴達。因此，很難看到隨著時間和地點之間的趨勢。

葬禮銘文作為人口來源的另一個問題是，它們傾向于記錄那些有能力制作它們的人的生活，即具有經(jīng)濟和社會地位的人。因此，我們談論窮人或被奴役的人的能力，遠不如我們談論精英的能力。

最后，銘文證據(jù)也偏向于非常古老和非常年輕的，也就是說，年齡值得注意的人傾向于記錄它。相比之下，幸存者往往不會評論那些生活在被認為是標準時間的人的年齡。因此，如果我們正在尋找有關(guān)預期壽命的信息，這也會扭曲數(shù)據(jù)。

Sociologists can learn a great deal from looking at classical texts. First, it is useful for modern scholars to look at societies which are so different from those which exist today, in order to give perspective on what the world looks like now. For instance, in the modern day we are very comfortable with the idea that a person’s home is their private space, separate from the outside world of politics and business. But the Romans conducted a lot of business within their homes, so the boundary between domestic and civic spheres was a great deal more permeable than it is today.

Many of the sociological tools which we apply to the modern day can be used to look at antiquity, but it is important to recognize the limitations of our data. An example would be demographics, and the study of (e.g.) life expectancy. We do not have widespread census data from the ancient Mediterranean (although we do have some population counts from Egypt in the Roman period). So scholars often rely on funerary records, mostly consisting of inscriptions which commemorate the dead person. The problem, however, is that such data is unreliable for a number of reasons: first, it is not consistent across all geographical areas and time periods, so that, for instance, we have a great deal of information about burials in Athens in the second half of the fifth century BCE, but far less from 100 years earlier and later. We also have very little inscriptional evidence from other places in the classical Greek world, such as Sparta. So it is difficult to see trends over time and between places. Another problem with funerary inscriptions as demographic sources is that they tend to record the lives of those who could afford to have them made, that is, people with economic and social standing. Thus, our ability to talk about poor or enslaved people is far inferior to what we can say about the elite. Finally, inscriptional evidence is also biased toward the very old and the very young, which is to say, people whose age was noteworthy tended to have it recorded. Survivors tended not to comment on the age of those who lived what was considered a standard amount of time, by contrast. So if we are seeking information about life expectancy, this also skews the data.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學博士，當代著名學者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現(xiàn)為中國孔子博物館名譽館長、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。